Discussion:
New Stockhausen Thread
(too old to reply)
Bernard Pulham
2005-06-17 20:29:36 UTC
Permalink
A couple of days ago, I asked Nigel Curtis to develop his negative
comment on LICHT-BILDER. It would be more interesting indeed to read
some musical arguments by those among us who do or do not appreciate
the 3rd scene of SONNTAG aus LICHT, than witness this heated exchange,
wouldn't it ? Or did I subscribe to the wrong group?
I hope by moving this idea to a new thread we can avoid musical talk being
buried in the other stuff.

I for one will give my new Licht Bilder CD a good listen this weekend, so I
can hopefully exchange some thoughts soon. Hope others are able to join in
from a listening perspective.

Bernard
Al Moritz
2005-06-18 02:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernard Pulham
A couple of days ago, I asked Nigel Curtis to develop his negative
comment on LICHT-BILDER. It would be more interesting indeed to read
some musical arguments by those among us who do or do not appreciate
the 3rd scene of SONNTAG aus LICHT, than witness this heated exchange,
wouldn't it ? Or did I subscribe to the wrong group?
I hope by moving this idea to a new thread we can avoid musical talk being
buried in the other stuff.
I for one will give my new Licht Bilder CD a good listen this weekend, so I
can hopefully exchange some thoughts soon. Hope others are able to join in
from a listening perspective.
Bernard
My copy alas has not arrived yet, so I'll have to wait before I can
join in. But I look forward to a discussion.

Al
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-06-20 07:43:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernard Pulham
I for one will give my new Licht Bilder CD a good listen this weekend
You know , we've never really discussed Hoch-Zeiten. Jerry K. posted
very interesting comments when he got his hands on Engel-P and
D-Zeichen but we've sort of skipped HZ.

Maconie in his new book said he found HZ a "mite disappointing" - does
anybody feel the same..?

mark s.
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-06-20 08:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernard Pulham
I for one will give my new Licht Bilder CD a good listen this weekend
Has anybody read this new Richard Toop publication on Sonntags
Abschied..?

ms
r***@hotmail.co.uk
2005-06-20 11:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Maconie in his new book said he found HZ a "mite disappointing"
- does anybody feel the same..?
No. It's a great piece. But somehow it seems a bit literal in the
context of the complete opera doing orch version with choir inserts and
then (after a lot of shuffling around) the choir version with orch
inserts. Does this now make Sonntag a six-act rather than five-act
opera..?

patrick
Jerry Kohl
2005-06-21 03:46:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@hotmail.co.uk
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Maconie in his new book said he found HZ a "mite disappointing"
- does anybody feel the same..?
No. It's a great piece. But somehow it seems a bit literal in the
context of the complete opera doing orch version with choir inserts and
then (after a lot of shuffling around) the choir version with orch
inserts. Does this now make Sonntag a six-act rather than five-act
opera..?
Six *scenes*, I suppose so, yes, unless you count the apparently
fictitious "Luziferium", performed simultaneously with all the rest of
the opera, in which case it is in seven scenes. At one stage, the last
segment was divided into two successive parts, titled "HOCHZEITEN
East-West" and "MICHEVAEL Licht-Paar". The former was to have been for
5 orchestra groups, the latter for 5 choral groups. Evidently the plan
changed during the working-out of the score, though I have not yet seen
it.

I wonder if you would mind expanding on your use of the word "literal"
to describe Hoch-Zeiten? This doesn't connote anything to me in this
context.

Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
Jerry Kohl
2005-06-21 04:06:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@hotmail.co.uk
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Maconie in his new book said he found HZ a "mite disappointing"
- does anybody feel the same..?
No. It's a great piece. But somehow it seems a bit literal in the
context of the complete opera doing orch version with choir inserts and
then (after a lot of shuffling around) the choir version with orch
inserts. Does this now make Sonntag a six-act rather than five-act
opera..?
Six *scenes*, I suppose so, yes, unless you count the apparently
fictitious "Luziferium", performed simultaneously with all the rest of
the opera, in which case it is in seven scenes. At one stage, the last
segment was divided into two successive parts, titled "HOCHZEITEN
East-West" and "MICHEVAEL Licht-Paar". The former was to have been for
5 orchestra groups, the latter for 5 choral groups. Evidently the plan
changed during the working-out of the score, though I have not yet seen
it.

I wonder if you would mind expanding on your use of the word "literal"
to describe Hoch-Zeiten? This doesn't connote anything to me in this
context.

Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
jimj
2005-07-04 01:23:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Maconie in his new book said he found HZ a "mite disappointing"
- does anybody feel the same..?
<<No. It's a great piece.>>

It's a great piece. Re Sonntag's Abschied, is it meant to be played
while the audience is dispersing, after the conclusion? If so, that
would be nice, but I found it monotonous to listen to in performance
sitting in an audience watching the synthesizers concentrating
on their click tracks. For me all five blended into one sound quality,
without any levels or separate tempi or timbre groups. As a kind
of memory of the evening, though, that could be fine, as people
mill about chatting or whatever. I'll hear L-B in August. Photos
look interesting. Woops.............. nevermind.
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-04 07:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by jimj
It's a great piece. Re Sonntag's Abschied, is it meant to be played
while the audience is dispersing, after the conclusion? If so, that
would be nice, but I found it monotonous to listen to in performance
sitting in an audience
Sonntag would seem to be the only opera in the cycle where the Gruss
and Abschied are NOT of the same type. That is:

Montag,Mittwoch,Donnerstag + Freitag all have both greeting and
farewell as 'foyer' music, whilst Dinestag + Samstag have both in the
theatre.

You'd be well advised not to treat Lichter Wasser as foyer music ;-)

mark s.
jimj
2005-07-04 15:50:37 UTC
Permalink
<You'd be well advised not to treat Lichter Wasser as foyer music ;-) >

Ahhhhh, but the title..... it's so ..... decorative.
Frankly, no disrespect intended, but I think Sonntag's
Abschied received its final performance already. I
can listen to H-Z four or five times in a row, and would
be happy to sit in one theatre for orchestra, then the
other for chorus, but Sonntag's Abschied will send me
back to my hotel room almost as quickly as Lucifer's
very appropriately entitled Traum. Or should that be
Luzifers Trauma?.
Al Moritz
2005-07-04 23:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by jimj
<You'd be well advised not to treat Lichter Wasser as foyer music ;-) >
Ahhhhh, but the title..... it's so ..... decorative.
Frankly, no disrespect intended, but I think Sonntag's
Abschied received its final performance already. I
can listen to H-Z four or five times in a row, and would
be happy to sit in one theatre for orchestra, then the
other for chorus, but Sonntag's Abschied will send me
back to my hotel room almost as quickly as Lucifer's
very appropriately entitled Traum. Or should that be
Luzifers Trauma?.
So, what exactly makes the Traum so traumatic for you? Depending on what it
is, there might be elements that I could sympathize with, even though by now
I have overcome my own traumas with this work completely.

Al
jimj
2005-07-05 13:53:39 UTC
Permalink
I lost what I first typed in response, a paean to the art of doing
mortal combat with a piano. The issues I have with Luzifers Trauma are
on various fronts: (a) piano playing in general; (b) the musical notes;
(c) the extramusical sounds. I knew the Wambach (sp?) CD quite well
before seeing it performed. The live performance filled in blanks for
me and added to my appreciation of it, but didn't make it positive,
though I studiously avoided saying anything to people who asked me what
I thought. Music -- monotonous repetition, plus I don't like the
sextuplet motive CEBbCAC. For me the 11 consecutive repeated notes
with the last one cut in half is Chinese water torture. I get the
gradual filling in of space, the acceleration, as it were, the rush to
the big "pop." But it is not pleasing or enlightening to me in any
way. But the biggest problem I have with it is just the extramusical
stuff going on, which I don't have a problem with in the wind music. I
like it when flute players sing into their flute while playing. I love
"Momente" and all that clatter of thimbles hitting tamborine-like
objects, the clapping, the shouting. I love the hysterical laughter in
one of KS's electronic pieces. I have no idea why all of this doesn't
translate to XIII successfully for me, unless it's my own ingrained
sense of pianism and aversion to what I call the Liberace/Elton John
phenomenon. I will go to Lang Lang performances, but I have to close
my eyes. I can listen to Andras Schiff if I close my eyes. But KS
doesn't want us to close our eyes in XIII. I realize KS is extending
the ways of playing the musical instruments, but there is nothnig you
can do with a piano that hasn't been done. Sit on the keys, plunk your
right foot down on the upper keys, insert your right hand under the
knee crook and hammer out the 13,248,947th repetition of that stupid
arpeggio? Gliss downwards with your buttocks? Pu-leeeeeeeeze. My
only comment after the live performance I witnessed was, "Wow, that was
really something, not only could he glissando with his butt, but he
actually calibrated it to a mezzo forte gliss, not a triple-forte
gliss. That takes some doing!"

The banging on rattles and kissing into the air and shrieking out the
integers in German just struck me as a yelping hyena. The shrieking
out of the integers in Synthi-Fou is just fine. The Arditti screaming
the integers over the chopper blades is just fine. But for Luzifers
Trauma I get nothing but mortal combat with the 88 keys and then some.
Oh, it's dramatic. It's theatrical. But I simply find it akin to root
canal with no anesthesia. I think it's because the musical material
itself is grating and not nearly as varied and graded and evolving as
the composer seems to think it is.

But I may change my mind if this works its way into the repertoire,
which I doubt. I would also note that this was one of the first Licht
excerpts to be heard via CD in the USA. 'nuff said.
Al Moritz
2005-07-05 23:45:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by jimj
I thought. Music -- monotonous repetition, plus I don't like the
sextuplet motive CEBbCAC. For me the 11 consecutive repeated notes
with the last one cut in half is Chinese water torture. I get the
gradual filling in of space, the acceleration, as it were, the rush to
the big "pop." But it is not pleasing or enlightening to me in any
way.
[snip]
Post by jimj
Oh, it's dramatic. It's theatrical. But I simply find it akin to root
canal with no anesthesia. I think it's because the musical material
itself is grating and not nearly as varied and graded and evolving as
the composer seems to think it is.
That I do not understand at all. I always found the "pure" parts of the
piano playing highly fascinating, form the very start, and the material was
also always varied to my ears. And objectively, it actually is, since as
melodic figures practically all the limbs of the Eve- and Lucifer formulas
come into play--a far greater "thematic" arsenal than most piano pieces
have.
Post by jimj
But the biggest problem I have with it is just the extramusical
stuff going on,
I can sympathize with this. I had lots of problems with the counting, and it
took me a long time to feel it integrate into a whole musical texture. Now
it does that for me.
Post by jimj
doesn't want us to close our eyes in XIII. I realize KS is extending
the ways of playing the musical instruments, but there is nothnig you
can do with a piano that hasn't been done.
But I don't think that's the point. Of course Stockhausen knows that the
palette of "extended techniques" on the piano has been exhausted from a
viewpoint of invention. However, the way Stockhausen uses the "extended
techniques" in order to express the "noises" and "noise layers" in the
superformula gives them an entirely new musical meaning, in my opinion.
Post by jimj
which I doubt. I would also note that this was one of the first Licht
excerpts to be heard via CD in the USA. 'nuff said.
I do not know the history of that, but on a related note, it is certainly
highly unfortunate that most of the Stockhausen skeptics know "late"
Stockhausen only from the Heli-4tet. Not that it is a bad composition (on
the contrary, even though my enthusiasm is slightly limited), but it
certainly is the last piece that I would use to try to convert a skeptic!!
It is rather
for those who already have confidence in "late" Stockhausen and therefore
with less afterthoughts can ease into exploring
what Stockhausen really wants with that music.

Al
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-06 13:02:14 UTC
Permalink
it is certainly highly unfortunate that most of the Stockhausen
skeptics know "late" Stockhausen only from the Heli-4tet.....it is
certainly is the last piece that I would use to try to convert a skeptic!!
Similarly through its well-distributed presence in lots of libraries +
record stores, that Ensemble Musique Vivant recording of 'Fais voile
vers le soleil' + 'Liaison' gets a heard a disproportionate amount.

Have spoken to a number of people who've heard that and not much else.

mark s
jimj
2005-07-06 23:33:25 UTC
Permalink
< do not know the history of that, but on a related note, it is
certainly
highly unfortunate that most of the Stockhausen skeptics know "late"
Stockhausen only from the Heli-4tet.>

There are people in the US who have heard nothing from Licht save
XIII and Heli4tet. I had heard onlyXII, XIII and XIV until last
summer,
and I was astonished at the breadth, depth and variety of the other
Licht excerpts. I started loving this whole concept of the musical
themes becoming "characters" instead of just illustrating people
on stage's internal states. And the personality of those wind pieces
was charming. For some reason I just can't get warm and fuzzy
about XIII, though, and I think it's because of the extramusicals
and the way in which the piano is treated -- very percussively.
Starts out loud and gets louder, for these ears. But I don't
generalize
from this to the kinds of sweeping statements about KS's
music that is very in vogue here in the USA these days. I
do think it's because most people stopped listening after XIII.
I also think that the showman is always present in KS, and
always was, and yes, there is something very contrived about
the playing the keys with the foot and inserting the right hand
under the knee. It was the first time that I know of that someone
asked a pianist to do it, and I for one think that KS literally
looked for something new to do that no one else had done.
I have thought about this a lot, and I think of one of his
speeches he gave in which he said that piano music was a
dead artform and he would never write any more music for
solo piano. A transcript of it was on the Internet once. It
does lend some context to his treatment of piano in Licht.
Bernard Pulham
2005-07-07 02:25:14 UTC
Permalink
On 7/7/05 00:33, in article
Post by jimj
< do not know the history of that, but on a related note, it is
certainly
highly unfortunate that most of the Stockhausen skeptics know "late"
Stockhausen only from the Heli-4tet.>
There are people in the US who have heard nothing from Licht save
XIII and Heli4tet. I had heard onlyXII, XIII and XIV until last
summer,
and I was astonished at the breadth, depth and variety of the other
Licht excerpts. I started loving this whole concept of the musical
themes becoming "characters" instead of just illustrating people
on stage's internal states. And the personality of those wind pieces
was charming. For some reason I just can't get warm and fuzzy
about XIII, though, and I think it's because of the extramusicals
and the way in which the piano is treated -- very percussively.
Starts out loud and gets louder, for these ears. But I don't
generalize
from this to the kinds of sweeping statements about KS's
music that is very in vogue here in the USA these days. I
do think it's because most people stopped listening after XIII.
I also think that the showman is always present in KS, and
always was, and yes, there is something very contrived about
the playing the keys with the foot and inserting the right hand
under the knee. It was the first time that I know of that someone
asked a pianist to do it, and I for one think that KS literally
looked for something new to do that no one else had done.
I have thought about this a lot, and I think of one of his
speeches he gave in which he said that piano music was a
dead artform and he would never write any more music for
solo piano. A transcript of it was on the Internet once. It
does lend some context to his treatment of piano in Licht.
If you have the opportunity, compare the recording of Klavierstuck XIII made
by Majella Stockhausen (Stockhausen CD33). The natural register of the
pianist's voice makes a big difference to the overall timbre of
Klavierstuck XIII, and Majella's handling of the tempi (including accel and
ritardando) achieves precision and control that bring the piece alive for
me.
Al Moritz
2005-07-07 09:38:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernard Pulham
On 7/7/05 00:33, in article
If you have the opportunity, compare the recording of Klavierstuck XIII made
by Majella Stockhausen (Stockhausen CD33). The natural register of the
pianist's voice makes a big difference to the overall timbre of
Klavierstuck XIII,
It did not occur to me that jimj might know the piece only from the Wambach
recording, which I do not know, but yes, the natural register may make a big
difference, I would imagine.

and Majella's handling of the tempi (including accel and
Post by Bernard Pulham
ritardando) achieves precision and control that bring the piece alive for
me.
Acutally, to my ears she is even much better in the integral recording of
Samstag aus Licht. There her treatment of tempi, with the exact attributes
which you describe, and her treatment of dynamics are even more
riveting--the formulas seem like a Ferrari cutting through corners. The
later recording on CD 33 shows her more relaxed, possibly born from
increased confidence of having played the piece many times by then. But this
does not mean that her playing is technically inferior on the Samstag
recording--far from that! And sometimes youthful storminess has its
advantages, like there. Another factor may simply be that the recording
technique is superior on the Samstag recording--it does not occur that often
that the dynamics on the piano are captured this lively and with such
nuance. Since these change so frequently and rapidly in this piece,
capturing them fully becomes a vital aspect to bring the piece alive (also
the stereo that you listen on is important--most stereos can handle
macrodynamics very well, but many are rather flat on microdynamics, i.e.
with reproducing the smaller volume differences that bring piano music to
life--this in an area where vacuum tubes can be superior to transistor
electronics, but I digress into audiophile territory...).

(All the above also makes the Samstag recording to my ears far superior to
Ellen Corver's recording of piano piece XIII, which I also find less
attractive than Majella on CD 33. Corver does a brilliant job for me in most
of the other piano pieces.)

In addition, I like the version for pianist and bass voice (i.e. Lucifer),
as on the recording of the entire opera, better than the version for pianist
alone.

Al
jimj
2005-07-07 12:13:57 UTC
Permalink
You both have interested me very much in hearing/seeing other pianists
play XIII. What you are describing dynamically is the key to making
piano music a joy to listen to The rhythm/tempi changes are of course
the biggest Stockhausen challenge for performers, but on my tombstone I
want the following epitaph carved: "Don't play the piano unlesss
you're going to learn contrapuntal dynamics." Then, if you dig my
corpse out of the ground and breathe life back into it in 4,326 years I
will still be screaming about the variety of articulations and touches
and shades of pedaling there are. I have always wanted to hear the
version with bass voice. And the few photos I've seen of the full
staged opera house productions of Licht make me long to see all of
these pieces fleshed out with more visuals than bare solo performances
can.

I still have my own personal biases in music, though, that attract me
more to pieces like XIV, or "Ave" or "Hoch-Zeiten" or the upper lip
dance. By the way, I'm glad to see other people feel how I do about
H-Z. When I read Maconie's "a mite disappointing" my eyes fell out of
my head. But this is something I've encountered a lot: "Oh, what a
shame..... Gruppen was such a GREAT piece, why this?" It works so much
better if one listens to each new work with open ears, no expectations.
With that frame of mind, Stockhausen never disappoints. I know the
"levels" are supposed to be perceived as the five separate instrument
groups, or five staves, moving in five different "layers," but for some
reason my head hears it much differently. For me the places where
everyone comes together sort of like organum are one layer, the intro
is another layer, the mordents are another layer, the increasing and
decreasing density are one layer, the goal oriented nature is another
layer (i.e., there's an ending major ninth or whatever that one is set
up for after first hearing it), etc. Has anyone else had this kind of
musical dyslexia? I can't find any ophthalmologist or audiologist or
neurologist to correct it, so I'm worried that it may be senile
dementia on my part. Instead of hearing in the moment, I hear moments
past and future at different levels. Perhaps I'm not meant to be the
Stockhausen audience, because I love H-Z more than just about anything
by any composer, yet my ear refuses to follow the individual parts or
to stop listening in this peculiar sort of expectation of resolution
and articulation points way.
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-07 12:49:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by jimj
But this is something I've encountered a lot: "Oh, what a
shame..... Gruppen was such a GREAT piece, why this?"
Just this morning I saw a feature on GRUPPEN in Gramophone Magazine
(Aug 05 edition) and they did the usual knee-jerk reaction that KhS is
a "Doctor Strangelove" figure these days. Also Harry Birtwistle chose
GRUPPEN as one of his favourites disks on a chat show and said
'..Stockhausen has gone completely loopy now".

Have enjoyed reading your comments jimj..! So how many of the complete
operas have managed to listened to..?

mark stratford
jimj
2005-07-07 14:22:55 UTC
Permalink
Mark, I have not had the opportunity to sit down and listen
to all of them. My relationship to KhS's music is convoluted.
I first saw it in print when a teenager, and first heard "Mantra"
when the first LP was released. I did not love any of it
at first, was only intrigued. In college a friend of mine was
a fanatic and he interested others in it. They tried to turn
me on to "Momente" and X, etc., but I was really kind of
freaked out by it. The sounds were permanently embedded
into my mind after only one listen. I could literally even
today press a button in my memory and see myself on
someone's floor in 1976 looking at the X score listening
to Rzewski's LP. But I was laughing, frankly, and fighting
it with all my energy. I then heard and played Tierkreis as
part of a marathon concert and had other brief encounters.
Later on I immersed myself in the Klavierstuecke I-XI,
later XII-XIV. Last summer I went to Kurten because I
wanted to hear the more recent Stockhausen work and
wanted to learn what makes it tick, rather than just
listen to cold CDs. I think that live performances are
a much better intro. However, I feel lucky to have
dipped my toes into Licht only very gradually, first
hearing Luzifers Traum and Michaels Examen until
I knew all the little motifs, then hearing some of the
permutations at Kurten, i.e., solo wind, large tape
pieces, etc. When I heard Synthi-Fou I finally was
utterly won over by ein, zwei, drei, vier, etc. A kind
of epiphany as it were.

I don't know if there are any videos of the operas,
but I feel I need to see these ideas worked out
on a stage with expensive costumes and sets to
really give it the best chance. I have reservations,
but they stem from my bias about opera. It took
me a while to "get" this much different way of
making "opera" from musical gestures, kind of
a different tack on an old dilemma, very novel
and individualistic. One thinks of "libretto" and
"plot" and people rather than instruments and
formulae and series, normally. But I'm open to
this now after being won over gradually. I do
think opera means collaboration with a nonmusical
mind coming from a dramatic/literary angle, which
is apparently not "Licht." There are historical
precedents to this in some ways, but it is new
uncharted territory.

I think what recordings
don't convey is the sheer magic and charm of
"Licht." I got a positive glow out of all of it
and went home dreaming of fairies and elves
and science fiction monsters and dragons and
angels. Really a wonderful, delightful work of
art, even with all my reservations about "scene
music" and some of the darker moments.

Very saddened to hear about the London bombings
this morning. My heart goes out to people who
rely on the trains for their commute every day.
I know that sense of losing all trust in the daily
routine.
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-08 08:23:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by jimj
Very saddened to hear about the London bombings
this morning.
I had to walk 1.5 hours last night to find a train but I shouldn't
complain given that I'm still alive. Extraordinary luck (or maybe part
of the terrorists' plan) that three of the blasts were so close to
large hospitals. The death count could have been much higher otherwise.

mark s.
jimj
2005-07-08 12:46:53 UTC
Permalink
These kinds of coordinated violent acts never accomplish anything.
Whoever the intended political recipient of them is just hardens on
their stance, and most people get more angry and less inclined to
listen to or sympathize with the planners.
ludovicus
2005-07-10 12:54:14 UTC
Permalink
Jim I must make a comment on your PP XIII and once again could I remind
you and readers in the nicest possible way, that it is part of an
OPERA.

Stockhausen's humour is legendary - his is also a great mimic - if
everytjhing goes well after a concert, his group and guests are in
stitches as he imitates all the officials he has dealt with that day.

Only when he tells us that something is a joke, do we laugh. KS informs
is that when the pianist in Kontakte leaves the piano and strikes the
tam-tam and returns, it is a joke. So is Vatican Red etc in Hymnen.

How deep is this humour? Well, in the seven scenes of the first two
operas, four have hardly any text. In the same way, in the Helicopter
St Qu he has not only 'sent the string quartet UP' LITERALLY, but the
'music' is the opposite to what every other composer has tried to do in
the medium since Haydn and the Beethoven lates. In Luzifer's Dance, the
face actually sticks its tongue out at the audience and there is an
ochestra strike and in World Parliament the proceedings are interrupted
by the janitor warning that he conductor's car is about to towed away.

Piano Piece XIII is probably the most humorous of these amusing works.
The bass singer is the anithesis of Fischer-Dieskau, the piano is made
to look like a coffin and fireworks are set off from it.

But the music is marvellous and very funny, eliciting spontaneous
laughter.
The glissandi with the bum is a send up of all glissandi every written
- including his own in PPX. Some fragments - one six notes long - is a
little cheekly dance. The pianists whistles - short short long - are
then 'copied' later when high single notes are heard not only almost
the 'star music' of early pointillism, but like the slow tolling of a
village church bell. The treatment of the five rising staccato notes at
the beginning can be followed like a recurring character in a novel. At
one point the repeated notes seem to be mimicking the famous Schubert
triplets of the Erl-King, itself sent up by Dudley Moore in Beyond the
Fringe (Strewth! I'm getting abstruse now!!). Other uses of the piano
strings invented by erstwhile friends are also treated humorously and
the numerous repetitions and variations of the opening chords - full of
resonance - are fascinating - and can be heard in a variety of ways
.e.g. the largest bells have the most overtones - could they be heard
as such - the possibilites are many. And of course, the fragments of
the superfomulae are integrated - this goes without saying. I'm not
sure what Lucifer is dreaming about, but if he was dreaming of a perf
of Piano Piece XIII, I hope he was chuckling like me!
jimj
2005-07-11 02:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Oh, I know Stockhausen has humor all over his music. And I understand
the send up of piano glisses, even of the over-the-top piano virtuoso
doing mortal combat with the ivories. It is definitely theatrical and
very irreverent, and I want to see it staged. I have seen a photo with
someone on stilts, not sure if it's "Traum" or "Danz" but it's Luzifer,
although he looks a tad like Uncle Sam at the County Fair.
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-05 07:28:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by jimj
Frankly, no disrespect intended, but I think Sonntag's
Abschied received its final performance already.
heh;-) But to be totally pedantic, it did receive another perf in
Berlin last autumn in a monster concert preceeded by
piano pieces 1,2,3,4,5, 7,8,9+10

But Jim, have you heard the "foyer"-type music for Freitag which is as
long as the opera itself..? Would you stick around for that..?

mark s
jimj
2005-07-05 13:38:29 UTC
Permalink
<But Jim, have you heard the "foyer"-type music for Freitag which is as

long as the opera itself..? Would you stick around for that..? >

Haven't heard it, but I like this idea that you don't rush to the door
and compete for the prize for first person to get their car out of the
parking garage (you have to see the crowd at Avery Fisher Hall after a
Bruckner Symphony -- I feel the drivers' pain). So if the opera was a
fun evening that gave me a lot to think about and I saw people I wanted
to chat with rather than run out and fight for a cab, yeah, I'd love to
have some music pumped into the foyer while I gradually let the
experience disperse. In that context, Sonntag's Abschied would suit me
just fine, much like the 12-tone intermission bells at Avery Fisher
Hall, you hear them, you perceive them as music, but its function is to
say "Take your seats, please" or "Have a nice drive back to suburbia."
Bernard Pulham
2005-07-05 16:37:19 UTC
Permalink
On 4/7/05 08:50, in article
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by jimj
It's a great piece. Re Sonntag's Abschied, is it meant to be played
while the audience is dispersing, after the conclusion? If so, that
would be nice, but I found it monotonous to listen to in performance
sitting in an audience
Sonntag would seem to be the only opera in the cycle where the Gruss
Montag,Mittwoch,Donnerstag + Freitag all have both greeting and
farewell as 'foyer' music, whilst Dinestag + Samstag have both in the
theatre.
You'd be well advised not to treat Lichter Wasser as foyer music ;-)
mark s.
Isn't Donnerstag's Abschied meant to take place *outside* the theatre.. From
the rooftops..? That's how I heard it in London. (And the cheap seats missed
out on the Foyer "Gruss" completely, being before the Royal Opera House
redesign).
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-06 07:51:57 UTC
Permalink
..the cheap seats missed out on the Foyer [Donnerstag] "Gruss" completely
I know - I was in the cheap Covent Garden seats as well. They could
have played it over the tannoy or something :-(
r***@hotmail.co.uk
2005-06-21 09:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Has anybody read this new Richard Toop publication on Sonntags
Abschied..?
I like Toop's writings but am going to wait to hear the work first.
It's probably a fair bet it will be coupled with Strahlen the 35 min
percussion piece which like S-Abschied is based on HZ. Hopefully this
will be out soon.

I wonder how seriously the Kurten gang are taking this Dresden 2008
business; have heard no more about sponsorship. A shame like Lorin
Maazel (with his recent 1984 opera at Covent Garden) that the composer
can't leap in to bankroll it himself.

pr
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-06-21 09:58:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@hotmail.co.uk
A shame like Lorin
Maazel (with his recent 1984 opera at Covent Garden) that the composer
can't leap in to bankroll it himself.
I don't think Maazel bankrolled the whole thing - just half a million
quid or something ! I thought I'd hate "1984" but L.M's phenominal ear
and pastiche abilities made it at least sort of entertaining. You know
he's set up a company "Big Brother Productions" to take it on the
road..?

Anyway - I keep thinking about the echo in Milan cathedral. I went to a
service there when on holiday once and it had an *incredibly* long echo
/reverberation time. I don't know how the doubtless complex music of
Prima Ora would have coped with that. When KhS was in Scotland recently
he apparently complained about an echo when setting the speakers for
Oktophonie but I bet it wasn't as long as in Milan.

mark stratford
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-06-22 08:38:32 UTC
Permalink
Did you know that Stockhausen is currently mixing 6 new intuitive
performances from FÜR KOMMENDE ZEITEN played by the ensemble for
intuitive music in Weimar...?

So number 17 in the catalogue will soon be filled. So far they have
done:

VERKÜRZUNG, WACH, VORAHNUNG, ANHALT, INNERHALB and WELLEN

Apparently they're going to be issued in separate CDs rather than one
monster set (7 CD..?) as per Ad7T.

mark s.
Nigel Curtis
2005-06-22 13:21:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Did you know that Stockhausen is currently mixing 6 new intuitive
performances from FÜR KOMMENDE ZEITEN played by the ensemble for
intuitive music in Weimar...?
So number 17 in the catalogue will soon be filled. So far they have
VERKÜRZUNG, WACH, VORAHNUNG, ANHALT, INNERHALB and WELLEN
Great news. I'd given up expecting these works...I really must be more
patient. Hopefully one day we'll get recordings of JUBILEE, the
orchestral version of LUZIFERS TANZ, Kathinkas Gesang with keyboards
and Dufte Zeichen for altoflute, bassethorn and synth. Admittedly the
final 2 reworkings still haven't been performed yet..

nc
Bernard Pulham
2005-06-22 17:21:45 UTC
Permalink
On 22/6/05 14:21, in article
Post by Nigel Curtis
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Did you know that Stockhausen is currently mixing 6 new intuitive
performances from FÜR KOMMENDE ZEITEN played by the ensemble for
intuitive music in Weimar...?
So number 17 in the catalogue will soon be filled. So far they have
VERKÜRZUNG, WACH, VORAHNUNG, ANHALT, INNERHALB and WELLEN
Great news. I'd given up expecting these works...I really must be more
patient. Hopefully one day we'll get recordings of JUBILEE, the
orchestral version of LUZIFERS TANZ, Kathinkas Gesang with keyboards
and Dufte Zeichen for altoflute, bassethorn and synth. Admittedly the
final 2 reworkings still haven't been performed yet..
nc
He should be back in the studio to do this mixing AFTER japan concerts and
Kurten course...
Paul Dirmeikis
2005-06-24 05:56:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Did you know that Stockhausen is currently mixing 6 new intuitive
performances from Fܒ KOMMENDE ZEITEN played by the ensemble for
intuitive music in Weimar...?
So number 17 in the catalogue will soon be filled. So far they have
VERKܒZUNG, WACH, VORAHNUNG, ANHALT, INNERHALB and WELLEN
Hi,
Do you how many musicians compose this ensemble ? Which instruments do
they play ?
Best regards
Paul
www.dirmeikis.org
Paul Dirmeikis
2005-06-26 16:52:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Did you know that Stockhausen is currently mixing 6 new intuitive
performances from F? KOMMENDE ZEITEN played by the ensemble for
intuitive music in Weimar...?
So number 17 in the catalogue will soon be filled. So far they have
VERK?ZUNG, WACH, VORAHNUNG, ANHALT, INNERHALB and WELLEN
Hi,
Do you how many musicians compose this >ensemble ? Which instruments do
they play ?
Hi,
As I didn't get a answer to my question, I made some research and found
this:

http://www.tutschku.com/deutsch/EFIM-Stockhausenaufnahmen.html

So, apparently, only four musicians compose this ensemble (Daniel
Hoffmann, trumpet/flugelhorn, Matthias von Hintzenstern, cello/overtone
singing, Hans Tutschku, live-electronics, and Michael von Hintzenstern,
piano/harmonium).

Best regards
Paul
www.dirmeikis.org
Paul Dirmeikis
2005-06-21 16:56:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Stockhausen sent me this booklet about three months ago.
It's quite interesting. It's a kind of diary of a 6-day rehearsal of
SONNTAGS-ABSCHIED for 5 synthesizers on the summer of 2004, during the
Stockhausen Kuerten courses.
This report doesn't bring many revelations to those who already have
attended some Stockhausen rehearsals in the past : Stockhausen is still
as demanding as ever, and hard to please if things are not played
exactly as written... It seems here that the main problems were the
synthesizers' timbres which didn't please Stockhausen, and the
dynamics' balance...
The report is sometimes anecdotal (one of the synthesizer players was
about to quit, considering he was unable to meet Stockhausen's
demands...), and many musical issues are hard to perceive, and lose
much of their significance since one hasn't the score on the knees, or
at least the CD on the loudspeakers.
It could be read as an extended CD booklet text...
Best regards.
Paul
www.dirmeikis.org
Jerry Kohl
2005-06-21 04:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bernard Pulham
I for one will give my new Licht Bilder CD a good listen this weekend
You know , we've never really discussed Hoch-Zeiten. Jerry K. posted
very interesting comments when he got his hands on Engel-P and
D-Zeichen but we've sort of skipped HZ.
Maconie in his new book said he found HZ a "mite disappointing" - does
anybody feel the same..?
I had to drop out for a while just after that earlier discussion, owing
to work pressure. I do not find H-Z disappointing at all, though it
took me several hearings to grasp its shape--understandable, I think,
under the circumstances. I listened to the choir version first, which
in retrospect I think may have made things more difficult for me, since
I relate more immediately to the instruments in this particular case.
(I think I must have had misgivings about the orchestra scene, after
all the stories that had circulated about the problems during
rehearsals and even the recording.) After about four hearings, I got to
the point where I had a reasonably good idea of where "the other hall"
was, during the stretches between the "windows". I feel that this
helped a lot--a bit like knowing a dense orchestral score where some
instruments may become momentarily inaudible in actual fact, but you
can fill in their parts in your imagination.

I found the quotations from other parts of Licht startling at first
hearing (even though this has happened before, most notably in
Orchester-Finalisten from Mittwoch), but on repetition I began looking
forward to them--I suppose partly because of their ready-made
familiarity, by which they supply landmarks in the not-yet familiar
terrain of the new piece. This function will certainly fade with
increasing exposure to the piece, and it will be interesting to see how
exactly my attitude toward these quotations changes over time.

Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-06-21 07:56:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Kohl
I found the quotations from other parts of Licht startling at
first hearing
I especially liked Kathinkas Gesang appearing out of nowhere in a dense
choral section.

The Sancho Panza/Don Q. style viola/cello duo-joke is quite amusing but
I don't know how long it will (for me) stay that way.

Did you see Maconie's book where he criticises the mixing of HZ..? I
forget the wording but he maintains the "windows" should be made to
sound more distant rather be mixed so homogenously.

mark stratford
Jerry Kohl
2005-06-25 21:21:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Jerry Kohl
I found the quotations from other parts of Licht startling at
first hearing
I especially liked Kathinkas Gesang appearing out of nowhere in a dense
choral section.
Yes, that was the one I had especially in mind.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
The Sancho Panza/Don Q. style viola/cello duo-joke is quite amusing but
I don't know how long it will (for me) stay that way.
Of course, Richard Strauss used that one already, but sometimes the old
jokes are the best ones ;-)
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Did you see Maconie's book where he criticises the mixing of HZ..? I
forget the wording but he maintains the "windows" should be made to
sound more distant rather be mixed so homogenously.
I have not yet seen Maconie's book but, after all, he is the authority.
;-) Now, who was the dunce sound-engineer who didn't understand what
Stockhausen wanted here? ;-) ;-)

Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
Al Moritz
2005-06-25 22:26:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Did you see Maconie's book where he criticises the mixing of HZ..? I
forget the wording but he maintains the "windows" should be made to
sound more distant rather be mixed so homogenously.
Now, who was the dunce sound-engineer who didn't understand what
Stockhausen wanted here? ;-) ;-)

LOL!

Al
r***@yahoo.com
2005-07-03 00:52:32 UTC
Permalink
Well, to be fair to Maconie concerning H-Z,
he has some rather nice things to say about the work and
even states that he's happy to see this reconciliation with "Cologne
Radio."

His comment on the recording itself is one, I believe, of preference:

"...The recording on compact disc is close-set and rather lacking in
the antiphonal distance suggested both by the physical separation of
the two ensembles, and by the dramatic conception of worlds at once
conjoined and apart. It seems that Stockhausen has opted, as in some
other of his more recent recordings, to create as exact a
superimposition as possible, relying on the degrees of tonal presence
of the absent ensemble in each case to convey the mystery of union in
separation. A by-product of arranging the two groups of performers by
pitch across the stage is that the center of activity, in terms of
frequency, seems displaced toward the right side, a tendency not
altogether helped by equalization of some of the lower-pitched
instruments to darken the tone, making the cellos sound at times like
double-basses..."

For myself, it would be a question worth asking this summer.

Rod


---
Now playing: Hakon Kornstad-Tetuzi Akiyama-Toshimaru Nakamura - May 11,
2002
Jerry Kohl
2005-06-21 04:06:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Post by Bernard Pulham
I for one will give my new Licht Bilder CD a good listen this weekend
You know , we've never really discussed Hoch-Zeiten. Jerry K. posted
very interesting comments when he got his hands on Engel-P and
D-Zeichen but we've sort of skipped HZ.
Maconie in his new book said he found HZ a "mite disappointing" - does
anybody feel the same..?
I had to drop out for a while just after that earlier discussion, owing
to work pressure. I do not find H-Z disappointing at all, though it
took me several hearings to grasp its shape--understandable, I think,
under the circumstances. I listened to the choir version first, which
in retrospect I think may have made things more difficult for me, since
I relate more immediately to the instruments in this particular case.
(I think I must have had misgivings about the orchestra scene, after
all the stories that had circulated about the problems during
rehearsals and even the recording.) After about four hearings, I got to
the point where I had a reasonably good idea of where "the other hall"
was, during the stretches between the "windows". I feel that this
helped a lot--a bit like knowing a dense orchestral score where some
instruments may become momentarily inaudible in actual fact, but you
can fill in their parts in your imagination.

I found the quotations from other parts of Licht startling at first
hearing (even though this has happened before, most notably in
Orchester-Finalisten from Mittwoch), but on repetition I began looking
forward to them--I suppose partly because of their ready-made
familiarity, by which they supply landmarks in the not-yet familiar
terrain of the new piece. This function will certainly fade with
increasing exposure to the piece, and it will be interesting to see how
exactly my attitude toward these quotations changes over time.

Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
Paul Dirmeikis
2005-06-21 17:06:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Certainly not disappointing! I am fascinated by HOCH-ZEITEN. It's a
magical work, so dreamlike... It makes me feel I'm travelling through
parallel worlds, in time and space. I don't have time enough today to
develop my feelings and comments. I'll try in the next days...
Best regards
Paul
www.dirmeikis.org
r***@hotmail.co.uk
2005-06-24 08:57:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernard Pulham
I for one will give my new Licht Bilder CD a good listen this weekend, so I
can hopefully exchange some thoughts
So Bernard - what are your thoughts on L-Bilder...? I can't make head
or tail of it.
Bernard Pulham
2005-06-25 18:20:35 UTC
Permalink
On 24/6/05 09:57, in article
Post by r***@hotmail.co.uk
Post by Bernard Pulham
I for one will give my new Licht Bilder CD a good listen this weekend, so I
can hopefully exchange some thoughts
So Bernard - what are your thoughts on L-Bilder...? I can't make head
or tail of it.
I have listened to the CD 3 times now, twice while following the libretto
from the booklet. At first I will tell you what I do not yet understand. In
the booklet Stockhausen remarks upon the musical figures which are "delayed
with themselves. Through processes of increasing time intervals, they
gradually become displaced in relation to each other and then approach each
other again until they become simultaneous", He also gives us the clue that
the flute and basset horn are one such phased pairing, while the trumpet and
tenor are another. Until I can pick out these "musical figures" more clearly
I cannot properly follow the relationship between the time layers. I expect
that much of the complexity relies in the number of musical figures that
Stockhausen is using here. Characteristically, the visual element (in this
case gestures and poses) would synchronise with the figures to help the
listener who attends a performance. There are 7 distinct types of movements,
so I expect the formulae layers are divided into seven musical figures, and
I have been looking at the musical example on the front of the booklet to
try to identify the figures as they whizz by in the recording... But not
clearly at this stage! The gestures are shown in a diagram which shows a
statistical distribution which will lead gradual changes throughout the
piece where one or another comes to predominate.

Secondly I can share what I already do appreciate in the music. The phasing
approach to the composition (as alluded to above) means that there is a
gradual feel to change within the piece. Some have perhaps already given
this lack of drama a negative slant, but I think of the electronic version
of Kathinkas Gesang, and how my perception of time is altered because of the
lack of formal signposts. I think that Stockhausen has achieved a remarkably
beautiful polyphony between the timbres of these instruments, including the
ring modulation, which is sensitive and luminous. Stockhausen's isn't always
the kind of music you would select to demonstrate highly successful
instrumentation, but I think this piece is full of such crafstmanship. The
libretto, which is a catalogue of creation (with idiosyncratic inclusions,
repetitions and omissions) leads to delightful word-painting throughout the
instrumental parts, which I can leave any listener to discover for
themselves, but I suggest focussing upon the 7th part of the Thursday Text
in this piece (track 11) to contemplate the poetic interplay of sounds upon
the list of bells in the tenor part.

It is tempting to think of Licht-Bilder as a companion piece to
Dufte-Zeichen in that they both include a resume of the seven days, but
perhaps the differences are more remarkable. Dufte-Zeichen has a rather
pedagogical quality, separating the music of each "day" for clarity, before
the final section takes us somewhere different. Licht-Bilder's music is in a
constant flux, (though not the libretto). I think Stockhausen is attempting
something like the time phases of the electronic music from Kathinka's
Gesang (electronic music) in addition to the cyclic metamorphosis of the
electronic music from Sirius' Wheel section.
Jerry Kohl
2005-06-25 21:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bernard Pulham
I have listened to the CD 3 times now, twice while following the libretto
from the booklet. At first I will tell you what I do not yet understand. In
the booklet Stockhausen remarks upon the musical figures which are "delayed
with themselves. Through processes of increasing time intervals, they
gradually become displaced in relation to each other and then approach each
other again until they become simultaneous", He also gives us the clue that
the flute and basset horn are one such phased pairing, while the trumpet and
tenor are another. Until I can pick out these "musical figures" more clearly
I cannot properly follow the relationship between the time layers.
They are most easily heard at the beginning and end, natutally, because
the intervals of entry are shortest there. I lose track of them for
about the middle half of the piece, but then there are so many other
things to listen to. The second CD, the "study version" without ring
modulation, makes these canons easier to hear, though of course the
texture is very bald, compared to the performance version.
Post by Bernard Pulham
Secondly I can share what I already do appreciate in the music. The phasing
approach to the composition (as alluded to above) means that there is a
gradual feel to change within the piece. Some have perhaps already given
this lack of drama a negative slant, but I think of the electronic version
of Kathinkas Gesang, and how my perception of time is altered because of the
lack of formal signposts.
I agree about the large-scale sense of form, though it eluded me on
first hearing. Your suggestion about following the text in the booklet
is a very good one--it certainly helped me to keep my orientation.
However, what is all this about "lack of drama"? Dramatic form is only
one of three main types that Stockhausen uses throughout Licht, and
indeed throughout his entire musical output. It seems to me that
Licht-Bilder is a lyrical rather than a dramatic form, so any
complaints about lack of "drama" are as off-base as complaining that
Oedipus the King isn't very funny.
Post by Bernard Pulham
I think that Stockhausen has achieved a remarkably
beautiful polyphony between the timbres of these instruments, including the
ring modulation, which is sensitive and luminous.
Agreed. I was apprehensive about this return to a 1960s favourite
technique. Ring modulation is attractive in concept, but surprisingly
difficult to work with in practice. (I have some personal experience of
this, in live-electronic performance situations.) Reviewing
Stockhausen's earlier live-electronic pieces with ring modulation
(Mixtur, Mikrophonie II, and Mantra) is very instructive. Mixtur is
sledgehammer-subtle, though colourful and effective; Mikrophonie II
shows that Stockhausen learned many lessons from Mixtur (and indeed,
the reduced forces of Mixtur's "kleine Besetzung" are an admission that
the large orchestra was too complex a native sound for management of
the ring modulation). Mantra represents a further refinement in this
technique, but you will probably be aware that the levels are very
difficult to manage in live performance.

After a very long hiatus, the return to ring modulation in Licht-Bilder
seems to me very well-judged. It is evident that the musical figures
for the instruments are made with the ring-modulation in mind: many
long tones and slow glissandos, interspersed with faster material that
interacts in a "chaotic" way with the modulating frequencies. The
result is a constantly fluctuating timbral palette that is like a
fireworks display in sound.
Post by Bernard Pulham
The
libretto, which is a catalogue of creation (with idiosyncratic inclusions,
repetitions and omissions)
It is actually a gloss on the Benedicite, which is the text Stockhausen
used for Gesang der Jünglinge.
Post by Bernard Pulham
leads to delightful word-painting throughout the
instrumental parts,
There are indeed many examples of word painting (the ring-modulated
flute buzzing to accompany the bees, the basset-horn burbling for the
trout, etc.), but you will not find every single creature or object
painted in this way. In fact, I would say it is more the exception than
the rule. However, one of my favourite moments is the tenor singing
"moss"--dull and slow and humble, but one of God's creations all the
same.
Post by Bernard Pulham
It is tempting to think of Licht-Bilder as a companion piece to
Dufte-Zeichen in that they both include a resume of the seven days,
For that matter, so do a lot of other parts of Licht (the Seven Songs
of the Days, the Pied Piper, and the Abduction from Monday, for
example). The cycle is, in one sense, *about* the days of the week and
their symbolism, after all.
Post by Bernard Pulham
but
perhaps the differences are more remarkable. Dufte-Zeichen has a rather
pedagogical quality,
"Pedagogical"?? It is a series of scenas (solos, duets, a trio)
reviewing the characters of the seven operas.
Post by Bernard Pulham
separating the music of each "day" for clarity,
I don't see this as the "purpose" of the use of quasi-Mozartean
set-pieces.
Post by Bernard Pulham
before
the final section takes us somewhere different.
Very different, indeed, with the startling appearance of the contralto
voice as an important protagonist for the first time in Licht.
Post by Bernard Pulham
Licht-Bilder's music is in a
constant flux, (though not the libretto). I think Stockhausen is attempting
something like the time phases of the electronic music from Kathinka's
Gesang (electronic music) in addition to the cyclic metamorphosis of the
electronic music from Sirius' Wheel section.
This seems plausible, though the gradual displacement of the figures
and the equally gradual return puts me in mind of some early electronic
pieces--not composed by Stockhausen, but by his friend Goeyvaerts. Im
partcular, No. 4 with Dead Tones, and No. 5 with Pure Tones.
Stockhausen of course did the realization of the latter, while working
on his own Studie I.

Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
ludovicus
2005-07-08 19:45:25 UTC
Permalink
None of this Lichter Bilder discussion makes sense to me. Bernard is a
highly intelligent musician with an enviable academic pedigree and so
is Jerry - KS was praising him to me 20 years ago.

What seems to have been forgotten is that L-B is part of an OPERA. I
should remind discussers that this is a form which involves an audience
in a darkened theatre, listening to music but at the same time seeing
costumes, scenery of a sort, & movement while at the same time trying
to make head and tail of what is going on - how it fits in with what
has gone before. The brain does not like confusion - it wants bearings.
One member of the society -owing to a change of plan at The Hague
concerts - sat through PP 6 - utterly bored because he heard a sequence
of what to him were random sounds - no audible structure - it just went
on and on he complained - and this guy had flown to Cologne to hear
Octophony - a very keen fan. But strangley enough, pianist/composer
Roger Smalley wrote an interesting article in Musical Times about PP's
1 to 11. 6 was mentioned in passing in just a couple of lines.

The audience for Sunday, the people that PAYS THE MONEY at the box
office and sits in the auditorium are watching and seeing an ephemeral
sequence of sounds and movement. What Jerry and Bernard are doing is
what this audience CANNOT - listen, with the booklet, listen again,
re-play a track, use their musical training to describe musical ideas,
refer to Uncle Richard and second cousin once removed Goevayerts -
remembering all those funny noises he used to make in the garden shed
before supper - and remembering that old book that used to stop the
Bible falling over - Benedict the something I think -

NO THE AUDIENCE IS ATTENDING AN OPERA. The composer has written this
particular OPERA. The audience know it's not the Barber of Seville,
Carmen or the Magic Flute or even Madam Butterfly, but they are going
to pretty peed off, if the can't make head or tail of what's going on -
waiting for something to happen as the slow mechanical movements of
marionettes on a fair-ground organ are accompanied by a sustained groan
of someone singing their own or another's obituary while they sit
virtually trapped in the middle of a row in a darkened auditorium.

I have two provisional bookings in September to address sixth form
music students on Stockhausen - not just 'where's the tune' but From
the Seven Days and Licht and (I hope) Spiral. [I use the national
anthem at first to demonstrate the signs - forgive me Karlheinz?] So I
do have something to do with promoting the guy.

But to me Bernard and Jerry are like two gardeners discussing the
ingenious and wonderful leaf and stalk structure of a plant that would
look like to me and some other members of the society, a non-descript
weed.

I listened to L-B seven times through. At the eighth brave attempt I
could take no more and had to stop the disc after ten minutes - it took
3 Brandenburgs, a Brahms and Liszt, two Solers and a Sing Circle
Stimmung before my faith in St.Cecilia was restored.

For me, L-B is a 43 minute mind-numbing dirge. I actually see in my
mind's eye, the bejewelled body of an easten potentate lying in state
in a temple while a paid mourner sings an excruciating lament: around
him, corporate musicians accompany him with short spurts of music - one
at least irreverent -, which as one finishes another takes up equally
short, on the opposite site of the catafalque. Some can often be
found trying to get a note out of their instruments, lack of success
resulting in a metallic wind sounds - or perhaps they imitate the soul
of dead during the Tuesday passage to the Beyond.

I shouldn't say this, really I shouldn't, but the first time I heard
the peculiar voice of this particular tenor, in glissando, it reminded
me of a sound that I once heard in the [British] Goon Show. "Why here
in the Canadian outback are those hounds always howling?" "No trees on
the priairie"
jimj
2005-07-09 01:28:14 UTC
Permalink
You must br a professional writer, but if not, you should be. The
words in your post conjure such vivid images I thought I was back in
the theatre watching "War of the Worlds" again.

I could not put myself in the trash mode while watching Tom Cruise and
Dakota whatever outdo each other with terrified, panic stricken facial
expressions for two hours. I found myself analyzing the soundtrack and
its relationship to the movements of the lines on the big screen. The
whole sequence in Bayonne in which the first tripods spring to life
from under the ground and zap people was spellbinding, an unfolding
horror that the music so beautifully complemented and illustrated.
After that, of course, Spielberg's poor taste in scripts didn't sustain
the suspense enough, though I was never bored.

I can't see myself buying the soundtrack, yet I loved that music.
Well, maybe I didn't really love the music; maybe what I loved was the
gradual unfolding which is a Hollywood sci-fi horror spectacular, in
which each new frame of film is flashier, bloodier, scarier than the
last. Boom boom boom boom. So opera........ ah, the eternal dilemma.
We can sit at home reading a librertto and/or a score and try to
visualize, or we can close our eyes and invent our own scenery, but we
need that visual element.

Surely KhS has given some thought to a potential new art form, in which
holograms come to life in our living rooms, generated by the composer
and stored on some electronic medium such as a DVD.
ludovicus
2005-07-09 03:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Twenty maybe thirty even, years ago, I was watching a perhaps
long-forgotten b&w film set in the future. A man walked into a room
where a string quartet was playing (I may have said this before). He
went to a switch on the wall and suddenly the quartet were no longer
there.

I beleive that in the future travel as we know it now will not be an
option - neither will the resources for vast amounts of money to be
spent supporting the New York Met or Covent Garden. I am translating an
article which claims that Licht in 2008 and 2010 will cost 10-15
million euros to put on - and if you've seen how many seats are removed
to perform Octophony, no amount of ticket money will cover the cost of
even the first ten minutes [the average cost (at 10million euros) per
SCENE is £344,000 and who will be able to afford time off work, air
travel and hotel bills - no once but SEVEN SEPARATE TIMES as the Days
will not be performed on consecutive days.

But imagine it in holograms - 3D to boot. theoretically Bernard could
play piano piece twelve with Majella but I would imagine works would be
put on in theatres - just as now we sometimes go and sit in an
auditorium to listen to Telemusik when we have the CD anyway - as at
the Barbican with Stockhausen.

I hope the worlds transport problems do not reach the stage when we
won't travel far from our own area, and this is not the place to
discuss oil except to say that already existing supplies have reached
maximum forecast and more and more countries - esp China - want it. So
if hologram "performances" are the thing of the future the one operatic
cycle to benefit most would be Licht - not even in holograms could we
have three ladies singing under water!
I don't think we need to go to such extremes for Mozart or even Moses
und Aron but I believe that even scenery could be projected
holographically so that an amateur productiion of musicals could save
money. (the sort hologram that I refer to was seen in an exhibition in
London in the 70's - a telephone would ring and someone would shout
'Will someone pick that thing up" only to find their hand went straight
through it when they tried. Very impressive.)
jimj
2005-07-09 13:51:59 UTC
Permalink
I can imagine a time in the future when Stockhausen scores are
resurrected by grad students for their doctoral
dissertation/performance projects, or perhaps by people looking to
build a name for themselves by forming a new niche, much like the
people who insist that any performance of Beethoven's fifth piano
concerto not on an "original" rebuilt fortepiano is impure, and that
therefore they, the owner of the most authentic reproduction of a
200-year-old obsoleted model of the 88 keys, are special. I can see
discussions of the intricacies of the diagrams for placement of the
speakers, technological controversies over how to duplicate the ring
modulators of the 1970s or 1980s, etc. Then the raging arguments over
the composer's real intention and the role of the interpreter, with
someone citing as their authority the memory of a 93-year-old person
who was a child in the audience at a concert in Kurten or the final
seminar taught by Stockhausen, or that their cousin knew one of the
young musicians associated with KhS at the end of his career. For me
it is a sign of our times, this rapid obsolescence of means and
methods. Computer software companies and e-device manufacturers do it
deliberately and glorify the notion that Everybody Must Upgrade
(Microsoft's ad campaign featuring office workers wearing dinosaur
masks). Their is some deliberateness to Stockhausen's obsoleting
yesterday's technology, and a byproduct of that is that his innovations
in the means for sound production are their own downfall.

Has anyone heard Stockhausen say anything about holography?
ludovicus
2005-07-10 09:16:55 UTC
Permalink
He considered holography in relation to the performance of Orchestra
Finalists so that the musicians could be seen floating above the roof
tops as they played, but abandoned the idea.
jimj
2005-07-10 12:53:39 UTC
Permalink
I was thinking instead of holography as a way of preserving his work,
in other words, have a performance by KP, SS, MB, etc. recorded
holographically so that their movements can be replayed in the future.
ludovicus
2005-07-10 13:08:41 UTC
Permalink
They are still issuing music on CDs and videos on cassettes - yet DVDs
are lighter and the quality better.

some society members have suggested that he should let people pay by
downloadiing from the net - Gruppen for 8 euros, Carre for 8 and
download the booklet for 3 or he just supplies this (advance copies
might influence purchasing downloads)- or even cheaper if the cost of
the CD and postage are taken off. This would allow people to download
Angel Processions and not the pp sounds of the surrounding group. And
could be spared having to pay for Simon's synthisizer examples on the
Tuesday CDs.

So when will the Verlag get round to hologram archive performances....?
ludovicus
2005-07-10 19:04:23 UTC
Permalink
PS. Low clusters of chords in PP13 bear no relationhip to bells - just
got carried away in my enthusiasm
jimj
2005-07-11 02:05:59 UTC
Permalink
How do you prevent pirating, though, with Internet downloads? Yes, I
would like to see hologram archived performances. I don't know why,
but holography just seems expressly invented for Stockhausen to use
somehow.
r***@hotmail.co.uk
2005-07-14 14:49:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by ludovicus
he should let people pay by
downloadiing from the net - Gruppen for 8 euros, Carre for 8 and
download the booklet for 3
So ludovicus - why don't you try to get Jim Stonebraker to do exactly
that rather than the : 15 seconds of INORI, 18 seconds of Zeitmsaze, 3
seconds of Hymnen etc that he offers at the moment. Do you support
what Stonebraker does - giving those ridiculously short examples out of
context..?

PR
Paul Dirmeikis
2005-07-15 13:56:09 UTC
Permalink
So ludovicus - why don't you try to get Jim >Stonebraker to do exactly
that rather than the : 15 seconds of INORI, 18 >seconds of Zeitmsaze, 3
seconds of Hymnen etc that he offers at the >moment. Do you support
what Stonebraker does - giving those ridiculously >short examples out of
context..?
Hi,
I guess these short musical samples are far from what Stonebraker would
really like to offer…
About a year and a half ago, a friend of mine and I wanted to build up
a web site in French dedicated to Stockhausen's music. We wanted it
different from Stonebraker's. Jim's web site is indeed interesting for
all the info it provides, but IMO it has a too functional aspect. We
wanted our web site more aesthetic, more visually refined, and
reflecting in a better way the beauty of Stockhausen's music. Above
all, we also wanted to offer online many score extracts, and extended
musical samples (5 or 6 mn). We had a didactic and educational idea
about this website.
When asked for authorisation, Stockhausen’s answer was straight : the
listener has to listen to the WHOLE work and not to a sample. So, he
wasn’t allowing any musical examples… Despite a couple of defence
speech letters (“How can we imagine a web site on a composer without
any of his music ? It’s like a web site on a painter without any of
his paintings… Moreover, one can suppose than most of Stockhausen’s
music lovers have been “trapped” by his music, while listening to a
simple extract broadcast on a radio…The main goal is precisely to
“hook” the listener, and encourage him to go further, and listen to
the whole work… Even when Stockhausen himself gives a lecture on one
of his works, he do play musical examples, doesn’t he ? Etc. and
etc.”) Stockhausen stayed inflexible, and so we dropped our project
which therefore became meaningless. Even if I respect Stockhausen’s
artistic and uncompromising arguments, I disagree with these ones…
So, coming back to Jim Stonebraker, I assume that, according to
Stockhausen’s position about musical samples, the few very short ones
on his web site certainly don’t have Stockhausen’s agreement, and
that might explain their shortness while he's "breaking the rules" ? I
don’t really know… I suppose one should ask Stonebraker.
Best regards
Paul
www.dirmeikis.org
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-15 14:40:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Dirmeikis
So, coming back to Jim Stonebraker, I assume that, according to
Stockhausen's position about musical samples, the few very short ones
on his web site certainly don't have Stockhausen's agreement,
Whilst some examples don't make much sense, a couple of years ago three
whole scenes of FREITAG were put up. That was a generous offering which
has never really been followed up.

I do wish he'd trim the silences out though. I downloaded 6 mins of
Thinki to find out that nearly 2 mins were total silence - which was a
pain as at the time I was on dial-up.
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-15 14:53:34 UTC
Permalink
You know the site www.archive.org/ which collects snapshots of
well-used sites..?

Well I looked up Jim S's site and can see that he's continuously been
carrying sound files since at least Dec 1998. The first vers of his
site archived has a 1.2Mb 30-second download of Momente plus a bit of
Dienstag Gruss and a minute of O.Finalisten.

I'm sure over all these years he must have done it with the composer's
permission.

mark s.
ludovicus
2005-07-15 15:05:24 UTC
Permalink
thanks for reminding me that it was Glass re Akhenaton. I don't keep up
with either so Glass was heads....

But I sometimes think that the response from Kurten depends on whether
its the sixth Sunday after Advent or 20 days into Lent. BBC radio three
broadcast in their weekly 'record review' programme, a whole hour
devoted to KS recordings ... from memory we heard stretches of
Kontakte, In Freundschaft, Hymnen and several more works. But it DID
involve weeks of frustrating correspondence back and forth and I was
told that they almost cancelled the review out of sheer frustration.

But I sat with Kathinka in Cologne, explaining that I wanted to make
more talks such as my Gruppen talk and all she was concerned about was
that I didn't play the whole work! And what about Stockhausen's
Greatest Hits? Two LPs at the time with a frustrating Heinz Holliger
Spiral in part only. I have only just heard the complete perf after all
these years thanks to the purchasing of a rare LP by a member.

So, consult an oracle. What was good enough for the Romans...
jimj
2005-07-16 20:44:32 UTC
Permalink
It's a thorny question for sure. These days people just steal with no
compunction, and classical musicians are notorious for copying things
to save the cost of scores and CDs. I think some feel entitled to do
so because they aren't bringing in the big bucks. "How am I supposed
to afford this?" And if people can hear what they want to hear without
paying, they may just never pay. So I can see KS' reasons for being
concerned. On the other hand, there is such a thing as not adapting to
changing times and expecting the world to jump on board with one's own
program, which doesn't happen no matter how great you are. You simply
can't be in business without compromising. You can be a great artist,
but at times I wonder if great artists aren't doomed to be the sound of
one hand clapping in the modern world. Look at Ligeti: he lost
control of his product when Kubrick put excerpts from his recorded
music into the "2001" soundtrack. I'm sure he never received a
fraction of what he should have in residuals. But did he lose?
Hardly. His music has been heard by many orders of magnitude more
listeners than that of all his peers combined. Sometimes ya gotta give
a little.
Nigel Curtis
2005-07-11 08:07:50 UTC
Permalink
For me, Licht-Bilder is a 43 minute mind-numbing dirge.
Agreed. One of his weakest pieces.

nc
jimj
2005-07-11 11:48:02 UTC
Permalink
Hmmmmmmmmmm........ I think it would be a hoot if I hear L-B and love
it. It wouldn't surprise me, because listeners obviously have widely
varying tastes regardless of their understanding, witness KsXIII.
Nothing has been said about it yet by people who enjoy it that I didn't
already know, but I still don't feel the way about it that I do about
Carre, for instance, or Ave, or Palestrina's Lamentations of Jeremiah
or the Beatles' "Yesterday" or the Stones' "Goats Head Soup."
hahahahaha
ludovicus
2005-07-11 17:38:49 UTC
Permalink
My criterion is from Shakespeare 'Tis wondrous how cats'guts can hail
[haul] the souls from men's bodies'. Much Ado About Nothing. In my
'Melodic Analysis of Gruppen CD' (ONE of the approaches approved of by
KS by the way) I say that when I heard Haydn's symphony no 51 for the
first time, I didn't come down to earth for three days and listening to
Shostakovich's 8th by CBSO.Rattle live -I was literally in other world
'taken along a forest path, listening to discussions by brass and then
woodwind about the secrets of the universe too important to be
revealed'

But if as KS claims, music can change one - I was "changed" after
hearing a soul-transporting 'performance' of Hymnen in Cologne Uni -
the perfect hall shape. And I sent out Lichter-Wasser back to members
who had had the first perf recorded from radio, the soprano solo at
c30mins is so powerful - beautiful - timeless - it elicited another
'rave'. the circle of the week as performed on the opera CDs I spent a
whole day trying to 'inject' into my brain. I won't bore peolpe with
the images I see in Gruppen Carre and indeed Mixtur

and so on - but how much of Sunday does this? Can anyone imagine being
'transported' by L-B? I haven't had time to listen to Dufte Ziech but
as our contributor jimj says Each one to his taste. But I do believe
in the concept of a 'general consensus of opinion'

By the way is this another example of either KS humour or taking
inspiration from everyday life. There is a German proverb which says
Man kann nicht bei zwei Hochzeiten tanzen = one cannot dance at two
weddings at the same time which is our 'you can't be in two places at
once' And H-Z is performed in....

Please keep listening to XIII, Jim!!!.
jimj
2005-07-11 20:03:21 UTC
Permalink
I think the German proverb you mention is no doubt being alluded to by
KS, who not only puns a lot, but is obviously extremely sophisticated
in areas other than music, which is precisely what makes him and his
music so fascinating.

I would like to hear Hymnen. I have looked all over for my Wambach CD
of XIII and can't find it. I had listened to it countless times, and
actually liked Michael's Examen a lot at first and wanted to learn it.
But on that CD it's XIV that really enamored me of late Stockhausen the
most and made me keep an open mind to the sound-noises or musical
noises or whatever, etc.

In fact I put the CD in a rental car to go to the Jersey Shore on July
4th Weekend 2 years ago, and that's the last I saw of it. I think it
must be in the rental car still, or else someone in Cape May got wind
of my possession and broke into the car to take it. You see how KS'
music can change people's lives?

I think for me Carre and Momente are my favorite KhS music, but then I
have not heard Mixtur or Hymnen or Telemusik or Tran, etc. I went to
the library to listen to a CD of "Sternklang" and found that it's in
the special research section, where you cannot touch the items
yourself, but must put in formal requests and have a special technician
in another room play the vinyl and communicate with you via computer
instant messaging. Very weird concept, to be in such a sterile,
high-tech environment to listen to a vinyl recording of park music.

I will of course look for any performances of XIII to take in, but I
don't want to listen to rockets and rattles on a CD with headphones.
BTW, I was transported to another world by H-Z when I heard it over
five sets of speakers. Through headphones on a CD it's only a faint
memory of the experience, but I still love it.
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-12 10:10:33 UTC
Permalink
I have not heard ...Hymnen or Telemusik or Trans, etc.
Believe me - you are in for a treat. Don't walk - just run and order
these pieces TODAY! We'll be checking up on you.

mark stratford.
ludovicus
2005-07-12 10:56:49 UTC
Permalink
If you do, Jim, I will send you a 'map' of Hymnen that I constructed,
plus a couple of articles - normally I confine our KS material to those
that really want it by joining the society (open only to the wealthy
who can whistle all 12 Zodiac melodies, which is why I am not a member
myself) but in your case I will send the material free and loan you
from the society's library the public broadcast of Hymnen with soloists
from 1985. You can order Hymnen through the society if you wish and
although there are the two versions, we are especially fond of the
broadcast mentioned.

My mind conjures up images that seem to be unique to me, but in Carre
there is a section in which raucous two note brass chords in isolation,
come from each orchestra, powerful stuff. These sounds are so 'raw' I
see a barren landscape millions of years ago and the anguished sounds
of a future-seeing mankind, calling across the ages. I don't know why -
perhaps I'm nuts, but does anyone else have visual images evoked by
Stockhausen's fantastic ability to conjure up sounds and harmonies that
without him would never have been or would be created?
jimj
2005-07-12 11:51:09 UTC
Permalink
<I don't know why -
perhaps I'm nuts, but does anyone else have visual images evoked by
Stockhausen's fantastic ability to conjure up sounds and harmonies that

without him would never have been or would be created?>

I'm a very visual person when it comes to music. I believe the mind
"thinks" in pictures, not in words or sounds. I think my favorite
sound from "Carre" is a vocal phenome (is that the term?) which sounds
to be predominantly female voices in a low/medium range, a single
sound, which rather suddenly cuts off a long decaying orchestral
sustained tone. It is the most fabulous single sound in all of
Stockhausen's music for me, and nothing in music for me captures the
feeling so well of being half way between awake and asleep, or suddenly
awakened from that state by a vocal sound, or the state of dozing off
and imagining a voice speaking to one, or someone waking you from a
doze by saying your name out loud, but very quietly, that very quiet
sound abruptly cutting through the brain waves because of its source
being from a "different world," that different world being the here and
now in the waking state. The whole of Carre is something like that.
For me it's "Altered States, the Soundtrack." Another experience like
it is being above the timber line on a mountain and starting to suffer
from oxygen deprivation, everything slows down, the senses are
heightened, there is a vaguely euphoric feeling simultaneous with
paralysis.

I wish I could qualify for membership in the Society, but I'm neither
wealthy nor able to hum all 12 Zodiac melodies. I was in a marathon
concert in 1979 where 12 of the participants learned their birth sign
melody and played it in the top register of a piano at times separated
from the other 11 sign by roughly an hour interval. Since the concert
began about 7:00 pm and ended about 7:00 am it worked very nicely. I
also played with John Walter Ligeti's Three Pieces for Two Pianos sans
the third, and I think we were the first to play it in the US after the
Kontarskys. A friend's mother was very taken with the visual imagery
it conjured, and said that "Monument" to her was the sharpest, cleanest
picture of stalactytes and stalagmites forming over millions of years
in underground caves. Other people heard pieces of music they'd never
heard before and also conjured up pictures in their minds' eyes to
explain them. Is that the directness of communication unhindered by
conscious attempts at analysis?
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-12 13:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Have you seen what 'The Observer' had to say in a leader (2 days ago)
about these London bombings:

<...The instinctive response of a significant portion of the rich
world's intelligentsia to the murder of innocents on 11 September was
anything but robust. A few, such as Karlheinz Stockhausen, were
delighted. The destruction of the World Trade Centre was 'the greatest
work of art imaginable for the whole cosmos,' declared the composer
whose tin ear failed to catch the screams....>

Why don't they just get their facts straight..?


mark stratford
Nightingale
2005-07-12 13:44:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Have you seen what 'The Observer' had to say in a leader (2 days ago)
<...The instinctive response of a significant portion of the rich
world's intelligentsia to the murder of innocents on 11 September was
anything but robust. A few, such as Karlheinz Stockhausen, were
delighted. The destruction of the World Trade Centre was 'the greatest
work of art imaginable for the whole cosmos,' declared the composer
whose tin ear failed to catch the screams....>
Why don't they just get their facts straight..?
The headlines would not have as much shock-value.
jimj
2005-07-13 01:34:09 UTC
Permalink
Karl Rove said on his recent PR campaign something to the effect that
"the liberals' response to 9/11 was to offer sympathy and therapy to
the terrorists." At last Americans had had enough and an uproar ensued
in which Democratic Party politicians demanded his resignation. Up
until then, however, it was okay to distort everything beyond
recognition.
Bernard Pulham
2005-07-17 07:03:10 UTC
Permalink
On 12/7/05 14:07, in article
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Have you seen what 'The Observer' had to say in a leader (2 days ago)
<...The instinctive response of a significant portion of the rich
world's intelligentsia to the murder of innocents on 11 September was
anything but robust. A few, such as Karlheinz Stockhausen, were
delighted. The destruction of the World Trade Centre was 'the greatest
work of art imaginable for the whole cosmos,' declared the composer
whose tin ear failed to catch the screams....>
Why don't they just get their facts straight..?
mark stratford
This week the Observer paper corrected its mistake and published this
retraction. (Much smaller than the original article!)

'Face up to the truth' (Comment, last week) was wrong to say that the
composer Karlheinz Stockhausen was 'delighted' at the attack on the World
Trade Centre, describing it as 'a great work of art'. In fact, Stockhausen
made a statement to the effect that he believed the devil was still an
active force in the world and condemned the attack as 'Lucifer's greatest
work of art'. Apologies

----
Nick Cohen (the Observer columnist) has not himself apologised to all the
other people who he implied in his article as hypocrites and liars when they
express sympathy for victims of violence. It was one of those columns where
the author attempted to monopolise compassion exclusively for his political
friends.
jimj
2005-07-17 14:30:51 UTC
Permalink
My feeling about 9/11 quotations is that soon no one will pay attention
to them regardless of whether they're what the person(s) said or did
not say, meant or did not mean. I'm thinking of Karl Rove's concoction
that liberals in the USA reacted to the 9/11/01 attacks by wanting to
give "them" sympathy and therapy, or some such thing. I was in
Manhattan on 9/11/01 and only got momentary relief from living here for
the next few years and this is just 100% false. In fact, most liberals
were calling for very aggressive retaliatory action. His public
comment got some righteous indignation from liberals who knew very well
it had no relationship to reality, but then the whole thing died. The
whole theme has been retread so much it's beaten to death, like the
replays of video footage of the Twin Towers coming down, whose repeated
overexposure has a desensitizing effect much like the Rodney King
trial's jury apparently experienced after watching the telltale amateur
video in that trial dissected a zillion times. So I say let these
loudmouthed oafs like Nick Cohen, Karl Rove, etc. ad nauseam wear out
their vocal cords screaming "Wolf!" until the public tunes them out
like background ambulance sirens.

It is sad, though, that I ran into a friend in fall of '01 whose first
comment to me was that that composer I liked who wrote the Helicopter
piece said this really shocking thing that was all the rage in the
news. I had no idea what he was talking about and when he gave me his
third-hand account of it I just rolled my eyes and said, "Look, ya
gotta keep this in perspective; this is the guy who dreamed up the
Helicopter String Quartet, right? Think about that."
Jack Campin - bogus address
2005-07-17 23:01:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by jimj
My feeling about 9/11 quotations is that soon no one will pay
attention to them regardless of whether they're what the person(s)
said or did not say, meant or did not mean.
With the possible exception of Stockhausen's, which actually required
some original thought. If Kierkegaard had been around to comment
on it he'd have been equally disconcerting and transcendent of the
soundbite culture.

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
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jimj
2005-07-12 11:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Ah, but I'll be broke by the time I get CDs and scores to everything
I'm interested in. I've always wanted to see the score for "Momente,"
but have to content myself with the "Schluessel," which is a
fascinating work of art in itself.
ludovicus
2005-07-12 14:31:34 UTC
Permalink
There's is one copy in's base. I was only joking about wealth and
Zodiac. Good to know you are a performer. Are any other contributors
able to perform contemp music?

Also I wish that one or two of the alleged 2 million [sic] fans would
put some Stockhausen on somewhere - the diary looks a bit sparse after
2 days in Norway... perhaps they can't afford the scores. The list of
scores and their prices can be found on our website [in pounds] and
they are horrendous. Our second city - Birmingham library - cannot
afford them - 'We would like to but we can buy 6 Max Davies scores for
every one of Stockhausen's '
Britten's marvellous War Requiem lasting two hours was - last time I
checked - £40.00. Michaelion is £110.00 and lasts one hour with much
smaller forces.

And a group that performed Kontakte informed me that the hire of the
tape and the score which apparently they had to buy [even though they
had one KS said there had been alterations so they had to buy a new one
and found that the alterations consisted mainly of altering pp to p. or
mf to f] was almost the price of the fee that they were being paid.They
have not performed it since. Can't remember the group's name but James
Wood had something to do with it.
Nightingale
2005-07-12 14:59:59 UTC
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Post by ludovicus
Also I wish that one or two of the alleged 2 million [sic] fans would
put some Stockhausen on somewhere - the diary looks a bit sparse after
2 days in Norway... perhaps they can't afford the scores.
The scores (and CDs) are quite expensive compared to other music on my
wishlist. Still, I echo your wish for more performances - I love my
small collection of CDs and will be adding to it, and I have enjoyed
most of the ones I listened to at the library. I've never had a chance
to hear any of his music performed in concert though. There was one
group that advertised a program including music by Stockhausen & Volans,
so I braved a horrible snowstorm to attend (it was a long walk from the
bus stop to the concert hall). I was very disappointed to get there and
find out that they had changed it :-(
jimj
2005-07-13 01:36:48 UTC
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I find other composers' scores, at least for piano solo music,
comparable in expense to KS's scores. I paid something like $26 for
Rzewski's "Les Mouton de Panurge," which ahd to be imported from Tokyo.
It is one line of notes that take up less than one page, and then one
paragraph of instructions, reprinted in several languages. I'm
surprised Britten's War Requiem is so reasonable, but maybe it's
because he's no longer with us? Or is he and I just don't know it? Or
maybe his scores sell more copies?
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-13 08:12:05 UTC
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Post by jimj
I find other composers' scores, at least for piano solo music,
comparable in expense to KS's scores.
An aquaintance of mine recently asked about the score of MOMENTE and
got this reply from Kathinka:

<<..At the moment we are producing finally after 30 years the score of
MOMENTE. The work is slow but we progress steadily. We hope to be ready
next year with the original score of MOMENTE, and after that we will
also publish the 1972 version which is recorded on CD 7 of the Complete
Stockhausen Edition.
We cannot say anything yet about the price, but it will be rather
expensive as you say (very large format on very thick paper in a
special "suit case")..>>
jimj
2005-07-13 13:45:06 UTC
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Hmmmmmmmmmm.......... should I save up my lunch money for the premiere
of Licht in 2008 or the commemorative edition of the score to Momente
in 2008 or the special suitcase to house it? Sounds like Kinko's will
be doing a lively business soon in copying architectural-plan-size
paper. My guess is that "rather expensive" will be in the over 300
Euros range.
Jerry Kohl
2005-07-14 06:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by jimj
Hmmmmmmmmmm.......... should I save up my lunch money for the premiere
of Licht in 2008 or the commemorative edition of the score to Momente
in 2008 or the special suitcase to house it? Sounds like Kinko's will
be doing a lively business soon in copying architectural-plan-size
paper. My guess is that "rather expensive" will be in the over 300
Euros range.
Why do you think the score will be published on
"architectural-plan-size paper"? The manuscript score as it has existed
for many years has no pages larger than A3. On the other hand, I expect
the published version will be a fair bit more than 300 Euros. This is
partly owing to the very large number of pages for the inserts (there
are about ten times as many as can actually be used in any one
performing version), and partly because of the necessarily elaborate
instructions for the assembly of a version. I am given to understand
that in the mid-to-late 1980s there was a version of Momente produced
in Vienna that got the inserts into a total muddle, partly owing to
inadequate instructions with the rental materials. While helping to
prepare the 1998 version, Hugh Davies (who knew more about the
intricacies of the inserts than anyone but the composer) was asked to
write a detailed essay about the inserts. I have not seen this essay,
but I presume it will be a part of the score, when it appears. There
will naturally also be extensive photographs and explanations of the
special instruments uses, including the "Zusatzinstrumente" for the
choir. Because of the mobile form of the score, the pages will need to
be loose-leaf. This is the reason for the "suitcase" (I think Kathinka
meant a "portfolio").

Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-14 08:01:36 UTC
Permalink
[re: Momente score]
Post by Bernard Pulham
I expect
the published version will be a fair bit more than 300 Euros. This is
partly owing to the very large number of pages for the inserts (there
are about ten times as many as can actually be used in any one
performing version), and partly because of the necessarily elaborate
instructions for the assembly of a version.
I think the S.Verlag could do worse than scan their monster score onto
CD-ROM (as a pdf or something) + flog it at 40 EUR a shot.

I bet it would sell well amongst people who want to study rather than
perform Momente and S.V. would have far more chance re-couping their
expenses that way. A CD-Rom owner could print it out himself on paper
of choice.

Sad that Hugh Davies died earlier in the year; I hope he got his bits
done.

Mark Stratford
Jerry Kohl
2005-07-15 07:01:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
[re: Momente score]
Post by Bernard Pulham
I expect
the published version will be a fair bit more than 300 Euros. This is
partly owing to the very large number of pages for the inserts (there
are about ten times as many as can actually be used in any one
performing version), and partly because of the necessarily elaborate
instructions for the assembly of a version.
I think the S.Verlag could do worse than scan their monster score onto
CD-ROM (as a pdf or something) + flog it at 40 EUR a shot.
What is this "monster score" you are talking about? The one I have seen
is about 45 pages, plus another 60 or so for the inserts. There is of
course the problem of the form plan, instructions for realization
(including the treatment of the inserts), and description of
performance practice. But what I was reacting to (in terms of "monster
size") was the idea that the *pages* would require "architect sized"
photocopies to reproduce (i.e., A2 or--God forbid--A1 paper).

Still, the idea of e-publishing has its attractions, from a consumer's
point of view.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
I bet it would sell well amongst people who want to study rather than
perform Momente and S.V. would have far more chance re-couping their
expenses that way. A CD-Rom owner could print it out himself on paper
of choice.
Do you really think the purpose of publishing this score is primarily
for the benefit of performers?? After all, for performances the score
has been available on hire since the 1960s.
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
Sad that Hugh Davies died earlier in the year; I hope he got his bits
done.
Yes, it was a tragic loss. He deserves to be remembered for his
contributions to Momente, but also for a great deal more.

Jerry Kohl <***@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-15 09:50:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
I think the S.Verlag could do worse than scan their monster score onto
CD-ROM (as a pdf or something) + flog it at 40 EUR a shot.
< ...the idea of e-publishing has its attractions, from a consumer's
< point of view.
I once looked at the Helicopter SQ score in a library. Even if it
wasn't so expensive (110 EUR I think) I'd never buy it as it's so
bulky. But it was incredibly interesting to look at + I wouldn't
hesitate buying a reasonably priced CR-Rom of it.

Ditto MONTAG aus LICHT - I nearly broke my arm lifting those 3 volumes
up:-(

mark s.
jimj
2005-07-14 11:32:21 UTC
Permalink
Ah......... thank you for explaining the suitcase. Another of those
Lost In Translation moments, like "Please turn off handys." If it's
only on A3 paper, I might go for it, but I'm afraid it will be out of
my price range. I'm confused by the inserts now. I thought they were
inserted from whichever moment preceded/followed the moment in which
they were to be inserted, and were simply part of the appropriate other
moment's score.
ludovicus
2005-07-14 11:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jerry. Thanks for CD. But I don't know where you got the infor about
Momente score. When it was performed in B'hm Suzanne kindly let the
society have the score for a few weeks and people came to see it.

I don't know hnow this was photocopied (the uni must have a machine
capable of doing it) but I rescued from the floor after the last
performance a photocopy of the first page of Moment score. I still have
it. It is c.A1 (in reality they called a special B size) and when I
photocopied this copy (to white out footprints, scribbles and dirt, it
is the equivalent of 4 A3 sheets which overlap by an inch top to bottom
and 3 inches side to side. I'll measure it exactly and post it
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-14 12:32:58 UTC
Permalink
performance a photocopy of the first page of Moment score...
It is c.A1 (in reality they called a special B size)
didn't KhS have to have a special conductor's desk made for the 1973
tour..? The photos from Festival Hall show the score to be enormous.

Roughly the size of B. Ferneyhough's TRANSIT


mark st.
jimj
2005-07-15 11:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Speaking of Ferneyhough, "Shadowtime" is to be performed in New York
next week, as well as an evening of his chamber music. It will be
interesting to see if there's an audience and if so how they react.
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-15 12:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by jimj
Speaking of Ferneyhough, "Shadowtime" is to be performed in New York
next week, as well as an evening of his chamber music. It will be
interesting to see if there's an audience and if so how they react.
Jim - "Shadowtime" was on in London the other day. I didn't go but saw
the Guardian's review which said: "The reaction was mixed: many walked
out, others slept through it. Those who made it to the end applauded
respectfully rather than enthusiastically."
jimj
2005-07-15 13:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Okay, we'll compare notes. You never know, some people may decide to
love it just to be the insy-in. People crowded into Miller Theater to
hear recent graduates dressed in zoot suits play their realizations of
Nancarrow's player piano studies, as though it were the last word in
ultra coolness. It was really, really dumb, and Nancarrow's music --
sorry to offend people -- is a slightly interesting oddity not worth
standing in line for.
r***@hotmail.co.uk
2005-07-13 14:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@yahoo.co.uk
..At the moment we are producing finally after 30 years the score of
MOMENTE....it will be rather expensive
Who apart from librarians at major institutions would or could actually
pay for this..? The MOMENTE score might be the best part of a thousand
dollars..!

Anyway - surely any group wanting to perform it would just hire the
material from the publishers..?
jimj
2005-07-14 11:33:50 UTC
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I'd love to have the score, not to perform it, to study and to follow
CD 7. Do people perform it??
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-13 08:20:30 UTC
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JimJ wrote

< I'm surprised Britten's War Requiem is so reasonable, but maybe it's
< because he's no longer with us? Or is he and I just don't know it?

No I saw his grave in Aldeburgh once. I also checked out Stravinsky's
on a little island in Venice. Got to make sure about these guys.

Off Topic: but I think the W.R. made Stravinksy a bit nervous coming
from a composer 30 years younger than himself. He said of the piece
something like '..nothing fails like sucess..' Or was that Robert
Craft..? Damn that man - I took a lot of those comments as gospel for
years.

Mark Stratford
ludovicus
2005-07-13 10:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Boosey & Hawkes scores are very reasonable..even I can afford the
occasional one and I'm poorer than a churchmouse. In the first issue of
Stock Soc soceity newsletter [1988] W.R was £25.00 and Refrain was
£56.00
ludovicus
2005-07-13 10:29:33 UTC
Permalink
New line from me. I did not like the extended Atmen gibt das Leben -
instant dislike. Even tried to put someone off from buying it from
Verlag but he insisted.

However, I had made a tape of part of it to prove my point - just let
it run while I left it for a few minutes doing something else in
another room.

But I was checking what was on this tape - marvellous soprano solo and
tenor solos -'gripped' me so to speak What was it? Rang hon.pres and we
decide it must be Atmen.

What an idiot, I've been. But shockingly if I, who love the music and
[spiritually] KS, and have radio recordings from
1964 can have unjustified prejudices, can we blame those who refuse to
take him on board - those promoters who have been 'warned'.

BBC radio used to have programmes called The Innocent Ear. we were told
who the composer was AFTER the work was played. My re-introduction to
Atem was similar - but I guessed it was KS obviously.

have any other contributors had similar experiences?
ludovicus
2005-07-14 13:41:14 UTC
Permalink
The elder Pliny, who used to have books read to him by a slave as he
drove his chariot, said that no book was so bad that he couldn't find
anything useful in it. I think we can apply this to composers.
Bersteins orchestration is very good and so are the Chichester Psalms.
As regards Adams IF it was he who wrote the opera Akhnaton, I like the
rhythms. But Jim makes me sad for American music lovers. An American
member, one Thomas Kort, has a two-hour music spot on a community radio
somewhere near Alabama, He played my 'melodic' analysis of Gruppen.
Response? Zero.
jimj
2005-07-14 15:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Akhnaten is by Philip Glass. I heard excerpts done by the Ensemble,
which is electric keyboards and huge drums. Then I heard the
orchestral version which was presented in the staged opera and couldn't
believe it was the same opera. Adams always gets a big cheer from
audiences here. The word that comes to mind is "gratuitous." I think
I shall write an "American Symphony," which would consist of just a big
loud ending and nothing more, but with pumped up brass section and lots
of cymbals. To suit the more sophisticated critics there could be an
alterative version in which the big loud ending is preceded by a
really, really soft chord in the strings and an actress who emotes into
a microphone. Anything 'll do, just as long as there's lots of chicken
fat in it.
jimj
2005-07-13 13:42:01 UTC
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I think the WR's sticker price is a sign that it has sold lots of
copies. There's another one I don't think I've seen many performances
of scheduled in the US. I think I can remember one performance I saw
an ad for here in New York. Peter Grimes gets done now and then, and
Death in Venice was done one season only. I make myself very unpopular
in the States for protesting that there are worthy composers who were
born in countries other than presentday Germany, Austria and Russia. I
think this is a threat to Americans' sense of musical geography, in
which Germany is the epicenter of the universe, in which Vienna is a
German city, not an Austrian city, in which Bruckner is German, not
Austrian, and only the occasional satellite composer ever merits
attention. I knew a musician once who lamented it as the "Dead German
Men Syndrome," again displaying that curious sense of musical geography
which insists on placing Vienna in Germany. Curiously, Elgar's Pomp &
Circumstance Number ___ (??) is more familiar to people's ears in the
USA than Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, and I think more people have heard
Beethoven's Ninth than have heard even Beethoven's Third. But then if
you step foot into an opera house, the center of the musical universe
is Italy, with a few exceptions now and then. American pianists can
literally program French music and be considered a specialist or some
kind of musicological genius for uncovering lost trinkets. All they
have to do is play Faure and critics ooh and aah at their novelty. I
heard Elgar's First Symphony for the first time in my life within the
past three years. I think what I find so odious about this heavy
weighting of Viennese and German composers is that so much Bruckner
takes up my sit in the audience time. Without passing judgment on
Bruckner as a composer, a helluva lot of minutes get burned up by
people sitting on their duffs which could be split up into smaller
works by composers such as Elgar, Delius, Chausson, Faure, even that
obscure French miniaturist Hector Berlioz, to mention only a few.
Debussy is still represented mostly by La Mer (sp?), rarely by Jeux,
and by attending concerts here you'd never know Ravel wrote anything
other than his Deaf Knee and Cloying Sweets. But you can bet the
average New York City audience has heard the complete works of such
superluminaries, giants of Western Civilization as Scott Joplin,
Leonard Bernstein and Aaron Copland. Bring out the red carpet, folks!
Adams has written a piece to commemorate -- big surprise -- 9/11. Sigh.
m***@yahoo.co.uk
2005-07-14 09:00:13 UTC
Permalink
...I make myself very unpopular
in the States for protesting that there are worthy composers who were
born in countries other than presentday Germany, Austria and Russia....
Debussy is still represented mostly by La Mer, rarely by Jeux,
and by attending concerts here you'd never know Ravel wrote anything
other than his Deaf Knee and Cloying Sweets.
Jim - I've only read a review in 'The Economist' (rather than the
complete book) but I think Joseph Horowitz' new "Classical Music in
America:A History of Its Rise and Fall" looks into a lot of these very
interesting issues.

mark s.
jimj
2005-07-14 11:46:30 UTC
Permalink
<Joseph Horowitz' new "Classical Music in
America:A History of Its Rise and Fall" looks into a lot of these very
interesting issues. >

I know it's not wise to judge a book by a marketing synopsis, but this
just jumps out at me: "he traces a musical trajectory rising to its
peak at the close of the nineteenth century and receding after World
War I. He defines the decades of ascendancy as the quest for an
American compositional voice, painting vivid vignettes of America's
most celebrated performers and such pathbreaking institutions as the
New York Philharmonic and the Metropolitan Opera."

Music peaking in America at the close of the 19th Century? You see
this sort of thing in American history that sells well, creating a past
that is impossible to verify the existence of, and nostalgically
lamenting
its decline since then. Horowitz probably never heard any of the
performances at the end of the 19th Century to judge them, and the last
thing an Ameriacn author would ever admit to is that the current state
of affairs has its roots in events of the mid-17th Century rather than
having suddenly developed after WWI or WWII.
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